Wage Theft and Celebrity Chefs

FRAN KELLY

Hello. Welcome to Q&A. I’m Fran Kelly. And joining us in Melbourne tonight: business and communications consultant Parnell Palme McGuinness; Tasmanian Liberal Senator Eric Abetz; Australia’s favourite social justice activist, Tim Costello; MasterChef winner and author Adam Liaw; and Victorian Labor Senator Kimberley Kitching. Please welcome our panel.

Q&A is coming to you live across eastern Australia on ABC TV, and across the nation on iview and NewsRadio.

We’ve got plenty to talk about, so let’s get to our first question. This is from Oliver Little.

OLIVER LITTLE

Thanks, Fran. Good evening, panel. This weekend, we saw the Member for New England, Barnaby Joyce, make it abundantly clear that an increase to Newstart is in order. How does this Liberal-National government expect people to live, let alone find a job, on $245 a week, when Barnaby can’t make ends meet on four grand a week? Thanks.

FRAN KELLY

Fair point. Adam Liaw, do you want to have a go?

ADAM LIAW, COOK AND WRITER

Right off the bat. I think Barnaby is just starting to challenge his own reputation as Australia’s best retail politician, by saying he can’t get by on $4,000 a week. But even though people might want to give Barnaby a good kicking – and people on Twitter certainly were doing that today – I think it’s a good thing that he’s come out and said this. You know, it’s great that he’s supporting an increase in Newstart. There hasn’t been a substantive increase since, I think, 1994. You know, that’s a long time ago – it’s a quarter of a century ago. And if Barnaby Joyce is having difficulties supporting two families on $200,000-plus a year, divide that in half, $100,000 a year, and people are struggling to support one family. And if you’re not even working, and if you’re on $40, $38 a day, it’s even more difficult still.

FRAN KELLY

Parnell?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS, BUSINESS AND COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANT

Look, if it’s hampering people from getting jobs, then I think an allowance designed to get people back into work needs to be increased. And it looks at the moment like that’s exactly what it’s doing. At this rate, people can’t polish up enough to get themselves out the door looking good enough to get a job.

On the other hand, I think it has to be addressed as part of a package that goes along with looking at other economic factors. So, for instance, are we training people to take the jobs that are available in the economy? Are we producing too many people who are competing for the same kinds of jobs? So, the most people who are looking for a job or want more hours are competing for things at quite a low skill level. And that’s because we’re producing people who don’t have specific skills, who don’t have differentiated skills. And a lot of the time people coming out of university with undifferentiated skills are competing with the low-skilled people in our economy.

FRAN KELLY

Tim Costello, what do you think? There’s always going to be people unemployed?

TIM COSTELLO, SOCIAL JUSTICE CAMPAIGNER

Yeah. So, full employment really requires about 5% unemployment at any time. So I commend Barnaby for saying that. He’s reminding us that divorce is expensive, and having a lot of kids is expensive too. But, that aside, I commend what he said. Look, when business and charities and the Governor of the Reserve Bank, everyone says this is wrong, when The Economist magazine talks about Australia as “the wonder down under”, 28 years without recession – the only country, really, in the world – to have people struggling like this, when Dick Smith, who put up his hand and said, “I got $500,000 from the taxpayers, franking credits”...we give $500,000 to one of our richest Australians – and I commend him for putting up his hand – and we say to people on Newstart, “You’ve got to live on $40 a day,” I personally think it’s immoral.

FRAN KELLY

Eric Abetz, what did you think of what your colleague Barnaby Joyce said? And do you think the arguments are stacking up against the government’s position?

ERIC ABETZ, TAS LIBERAL SENATOR

There’s no doubt that Newstart is exceptionally difficult to live on. There is no doubt about that. In fairness, it is indexed twice a year, but, of course, from a very low base. But it has been increased in line with inflation over the years that it has been operating.

Would every politician love to increase Newstart? I think so. But both Liberal and Labor went to the last election without promising to increase Newstart, and there’s a reason for that – you have to try to balance the budget. And when you consider that we are still paying about a billion dollars a month just in interest, you see the problems that...the legacy that is left as a result of deficit budgeting that you then have to start using your recurrent expenditure to pay interest and ultimately pay off debt. And if we didn’t have that burden of debt, didn’t have to pay that interest, chances are there’d be money around to, in fact, provide an increase for Newstart.

FRAN KELLY

Kimberley Kitching?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING, VIC LABOR SENATOR

Thank you, Oliver. I think that, firstly, I’m not going to denigrate Barnaby Joyce for arriving at a position of empathy, no matter the path he trod to get there, but I do think that, contrary to what Eric’s just said, the ALP did go to the election saying there should be a review, and we weren’t going to review it to have it go down. So...

FRAN KELLY

Just on that, the Prime Minister today described that as, “I will not engage in the unfunded empathy of the Labor Party.”

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Yeah, and he also said that about some of his own Coalition members. So I think the Prime Minister is also being quite unempathetic about this issue. I think that if I was a National Party member... You know, traditionally, they, obviously, represent regional seats. Regional unemployment in Australia is much, much higher than it is in the cities. So there’s another problem for the National Party there as well.

But we can see the government is quite divided on this issue and more and more of their members are coming out to say that there should be an increase. I think it will, actually...in the end, there will have to be an increase, and not just, you know, twice a year on the very minimalist sort of CPI level. I think there will have to be an increase for the reasons that Parnell points out – that, you know, you have to get public transport to get to a job, you have to dress appropriately. I mean, these are all considerations to get people back into work.

FRAN KELLY

OK. In a related question, the next question comes from Duncan Storrar.

DUNCAN STORRAR

Hi. Thanks. Since the election, our Prime Minister’s made a big issue about suicide and mental health. Would raising Newstart and reducing punitive social security obligations be the fastest way to make a dint in the rate of suicide and domestic violence amongst the country’s three million poor people?

FRAN KELLY

Eric Abetz, that’s putting it, not in an economic framework, but in a social framework, a human framework.

ERIC ABETZ

I’m not sure what the statistics are in relation to the scourge that is besetting our society in relation to suicide. But trying to link the two together, I’m not sure, necessarily, is borne out by the social data. Regrettably, people that have a lot of wealth commit suicide. Our returned servicemen and women, that’s a real problem. Blokes with marital breakdowns often as well. So the scourge of suicide, I think, cannot be just addressed in relation to the issue of a welfare payment, with respect. Both serious issues...

FRAN KELLY

Not only, but isn’t it fair to say that poverty is a stress in life? I mean, there was a report recently about Indigenous Australians taking suicide, and on poverty...being trapped in poverty was a contributor given there.

ERIC ABETZ

Poverty clearly is a stress in life. But there are many poor communities around the world that don’t suffer the scourge of suicide that we suffer in Australia and in the Western World. So I suspect there are other factors at play other than just the issue of poverty – and when I say “just the issue of poverty”, I don’t mean to demean it in any way.

FRAN KELLY

Parnell?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

From my observation, living in areas which were quite poor years ago, it was the poverty...poverty caused stress, but it was actually the hopelessness that led to other factors. It was hopelessness that led to people feeling like they didn’t want to live anymore, and led to the kind of frustrations that led to domestic violence. And that hopelessness came from not being able to get a job, not knowing how to go about getting a job. So, not that... It was even the step before sort of applying for the job, I had people coming to me and saying, “Can you help me with my CV? I don’t know how to do this. Nobody in my family has ever had a job.” And so, that really deep hopelessness and helplessness has much more to do, I would suggest, with mental illness and with rates of suicide in poor areas than the rate of the allowance which supports people in that time.

FRAN KELLY

Tim Costello, though, is there a relationship between hopelessness and Newstart to some degree? I mean, if you’re feeling trapped in poverty, would a lift in Newstart do anything to relieve that?

TIM COSTELLO

Yeah, I have no doubt it would. I think the fundamental question all humans ask is, “Do I matter?” And hopelessness comes when you think you don’t count. And I think people on Newstart, being condemned to live on such an impossibly low...below the poverty line, know they’re expendable, they’re dispensable, that they don’t matter.

And I agree with Eric that there’s lots of reasons for suicide. When Australia has youth suicide at epidemic levels, clearly the lack of meaning, the pointlessness of life, the nihilism of life contributes. But there’s no doubt in my mind that in a society that measures your worth by the school you go to, the car you drive, the brand of clothes you wear – we’re always, as social beings, scanning the horizon – to be poor actually says you don’t matter. To be poor, certainly, I think, says that hopelessness and, therefore, mental illness is intensified.

FRAN KELLY

Kimberley, do you see or accept any kind of link between a low level of Newstart and feeling poor, and levels of domestic violence and suicide?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Yes. Well, I think... Yes, I think there is a level of that. And there’s a really good book about this by JD Vance, which is a memoir – it’s called Hillbilly Elegy and it’s really an explication in some ways of why Middle America voted for Donald Trump. And... So I really recommend it. But there is a terribly poignant moment in that book where he realises... He goes... He manages to get away from... He’s never lived in a functional household. He realises he’s really very rarely done homework where someone is not throwing something across the table at him. And he manages to get out to the US Marine Corps, they look after him, he goes to Ohio State, he gets accepted to Yale Law. And when he goes back before he goes to Yale, he realises that he’s different from everyone else around him. And it takes him some time to analyse this, but he realises it’s because he has hope. And that is a terrible indictment on Western society. Terrible.

FRAN KELLY

Adam?

ADAM LIAW

I think it’s a fundamental question of dignity. You know, Newstart is there to help people who have quite often lost employment. It’s people who are...63% are aged between 35 and 65 years old. And losing a job isn’t just losing a source of income – it’s losing a support structure, losing friends, often leaving you quite alone. And if you find yourself in that situation, the worst thing that we can do is say to you that you are not worthy of a wage that allows you to live. You know, we have to allow... Newstart has to be there to get people back on their feet, get them back into employment. And that’s not just paying the money – it’s also putting them back into a system where they can help their mental health with the people around them.

FRAN KELLY

And just on that point, before we leave this – which we must leave it, ‘cause we’ve got so many good issues to go to tonight... But the notion of it being a temporary payment – there’s more and more older Australians, people over 55, something like 173,000 of them, on Newstart, who can’t find work and are waiting, basically, till they get to pension age. That’s a problem, isn’t it, Eric Abetz?

ERIC ABETZ

Oh, clearly, it is a problem. And that is why, as a government – one – we focus on job creation, and also providing incentives to employers to take on mature age, because trying to get people in employment, that’s the best welfare system that a government can deliver. And that is what we seek to focus on. But we’ve got to make sure that we don’t leave behind those that are unfortunate enough not to get a job.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Let’s go to our next question, and that comes from Rob Ward.

ROB WARD

Good evening, and thank you for the opportunity to ask this question. My question goes to my friend, Tim Costello. Tim, you’ve recently been reported as saying that Christians should calm down in the face of what would seem to be an increasing intolerance of the Christian faith. So my question is, should Luke and Carla Burrell, publishers of White Wedding magazine, forced out of business for failing to promote same-sex marriage, should they calm down? Should Joshua, the uni student suspended for daring to pray, should he calm down? And what about the Melbourne IT specialist fired for privately expressing concerns about the Safe Schools program? Should he calm down? What do we do?

TIM COSTELLO

So...

FRAN KELLY

Tim, that’s especially yours.

TIM COSTELLO

(LAUGHS) Thank you. So, I was speaking to my mob, the Christian mob. I would also say to some on the hard, secular left, they should calm down. And I think I paraphrased Jesus, who said, “Turn the other cheek.” My paraphrase was, “Calm down and suck it up.” And by that, I’m saying we’ve just elected our first Pentecostal prime minister, who could pray openly for six minutes at Hillsong and talk openly about his faith. This notion that we’re victimised, we’re persecuted... I’ll show you real persecution in my World Vision work, where Christians really are suffering.

But to your question, I think there are real issues around freedom of religion. I think freedom of religion is actually good for society. Freedom of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Christians to actually run institutions, have schools, charities that express their vision of flourishing is good in a democratic society. And I do think there are loopholes. I know, in New South Wales, that you can be sacked because of your religion. An employer can say to a woman wearing a hijab, “You’re scaring the customers. You’re fired.” I think that’s not on.

I think, to go to what’s behind your question, that Christians should be working this out sensibly, because I think there’s a lot of victim-claiming and, “We’re persecuted,” which is overreach. I think there are solutions. If I criticise left and right – and I try not to go left or right, I try to say, “Go deeper” – I think left and right want to keep the war going, often, and overreach and hysteria keeps the war going. In the middle is us, the exhausted middle who want to compromise and live together. And I think we can find solutions to this. I do blame social media, in part, which actually says, “‘You disagree with me’ equals ‘you hate me’, and I’m going to hate you back.” I think overborne statements from my mob, Christians saying, “We’re now persecuted” – though there are real issues – don’t help, in the sense of the culture wars going on, and to find compromise and acceptance.

FRAN KELLY

Tim, the other part of your quote, I think, in that “Calm down” – “Jesus didn’t go around demanding legislation to protect his rights.” Kimberley, do you think we need legislation to protect religious rights, freedoms?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Well, the government is proposing legislation. We’re still waiting to see it. I think they’re working through their backbench to come up with what I think is going to be a minimalist model. I don’t actually know, but I think that’s what it seems like. One of the reasons this is so difficult, I think, is… You know, Eric and I were actually both on the Senate Select Committee for same-sex marriage, where we started to look at these issues. We then had a Ruddock review. Because, in fact, it became very difficult to really...in the time allotted for the inquiry, to really to come to a point where we could solve these issues. And in fact, you can see now that this inquiry, the Ruddock review, was released rather belatedly last year. But, you know, it’s taken some time – we’re now in July, soon to be August, and we still don’t really have anything. We then had a religious freedoms inquiry in one of the Senate standing committees. That also didn’t really come to any view. And, in fact, one of the recommendations was to go to the Law Reform Commission. And that was around students and teachers. So, section 37 of the Sex Discrimination Act, particularly.

But I do think, from the evidence that that committee heard, that there are people who really do feel that they cannot express their view. I don’t think it is helpful to look at this in some dialectic where you’ve got, you know, people looking for certain rights, their rights to be protected against other people. We live in a society where, dare I say it, thank God we do have a contest of rights. And we are very lucky to live in a society where we do have that. So, we are not Asia Bibi in Pakistan.

ERIC ABETZ

Mm.

FRAN KELLY

OK, we’ve got a few questions around this issue. So why don’t we go to our next question now, from Sarah Cogger, and we’ll keep this sort of discussion around this issue going.

SARAH COGGER

Good evening. Thank you. Another question for you, Tim. Many Christians support Israel Folau, not because of his specific views, but because they believe it’s both unlawful and morally wrong for an employer to terminate an employee’s contract for their public expression of Christian faith. And yet Jesus commanded us to turn the other cheek, which presumably still applies in the case of unlawful persecution. So, “If anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.” How should Christians respond to Israel’s case in light of Jesus’s command?

FRAN KELLY

Actually, Tim, I’m not going to give that to you. I’m gonna give that one to Eric first off. You can come to it in a minute. Eric?

ERIC ABETZ

Look, our society has been based on freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of association, of which freedom of religion is a subset. And that is why I think we have one of the best cultures and societies in the world – because that has been one of our foundation stones. That is part and parcel of the ICCPR – article 18, if I recall correctly – that freedom of religion is deemed in international law to be one of those fundamental rights that the state cannot take away from you unless it is absolutely necessary.

And so, going to Tim’s point, it’s OK if you’re the prime minister, you can pray for six minutes at Hillsong, but what happens if you are a rugby player who gets sacked because of certain pressure? What happens, especially to the Pacific Islander kids who are of the Christian faith, growing up in Western Sydney, aspiring to become rugby players like Izzy Folau, and they see him sacked? What does that tell them about the Christian faith, their right to freedom of expression, freedom of association, and freedom of belief?

FRAN KELLY

Isn’t that exactly the same argument that Rugby Australia uses for, “What about the young kids who are gay who see, you know, a footballer who’s paid a lot of money, and one of their stars of the league, saying they’re going to burn in hell?” They are both concerned for the young people.

ERIC ABETZ

In fairness, look, he also said, “Unless they repent.” But that is where I believe that we as a society...

FRAN KELLY

Well, I don’t think sexuality is something to repent for.

ERIC ABETZ

Sorry?

FRAN KELLY

I don’t think sexuality is a repenting thing, is it?

ERIC ABETZ

Look, I don’t want to get into a theological discussion.

TIM COSTELLO

Oh, let’s have it. Let’s go!

FRAN KELLY

I think we’re… (LAUGHS) I think we’re in the middle of one.

ERIC ABETZ

This is a matter of freedom of speech. And it does come to pass that there will be a conflict of ideas, a clash of ideas. And therefore, it is the question of how you go about it. And should somebody lose their employment, because they hold this particular view. My approach to this is, right, wrong or indifferent, Izzy Folau had the right to say that on his Instagram. And who was part and parcel of his Instagram? There was somebody looking at it and then publicising it further. And so, if you can’t have that basic communication within our society, then I think we’ve got a real problem where people are not allowed to give expression to that which they believe.

FRAN KELLY

Tim, just on the theological point, I think, of Sarah’s question, which is, you know, should Christians be turning the other cheek, not heading to the courts?

TIM COSTELLO

Yeah. I believe that.

FRAN KELLY

In Israel Folau’s case?

TIM COSTELLO

Yeah. Look, my position is complex. I think Rugby Australia – and corporates, for that matter – shouldn’t have some fundamental right about their corporate reputation and their brand over or against rights of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. So I support Israel Folau’s freedom to quote – in his case, to misquote – the Bible. I also know that LGBTQI advocates are saying, “We’re just trying to keep young gay people alive.” This is not about attacking freedom of religion, this is actually about keeping them alive. That’s what I mean by “Calm down.” Let’s find the centre here.

I personally believe that schools that are Christian, Muslim, Jewish should be able to teach that gender is binary without being carted off to a tribunal, even though that’s not officially the politically correct position. Free speech and debate actually deals with those issues much better than legislation.

I would say I didn’t hear you, Eric, when Scott McIntyre, the SBS employee, was dismissed for saying some volatile things about Anzacs. He lost his job too. I think there’s often double standards here, that we only pick up one set of rights, which is why I’m calling for a calm debate because I think we...legislation isn’t a silver bullet. It won’t cover all of this situation. We actually need to find that middle ground and respect these rights in balance.

FRAN KELLY

Adam?

ADAM LIAW

We live in a country where everybody is free to practise their religion, provided it is consistent with the secular laws of the land. And we are an expressly non-discriminatory country. There’s always going to be an area of tension where religion, which prescribes moral correctness and a set way of living, is going to come into tension with non-discrimination. I completely agree with Tim that this is an area where we need common sense. We don’t need to rush to legislation to try and correct everything that we see as being wrong.

If you look at the Israel Folau case, think of the absolute absurdity. We have an organisation like Rugby Australia which is stated on the front of their website that they’re about diversity of gender, diversity of sexuality, and they are absolutely powerless to stop one of their prime employees, contractors, whatever his situation may be, from consistently undermining the aims of their organisation, just because he happens to, not just believe something, but believe it really, really strongly.

FRAN KELLY

So it seems to be...

ERIC ABETZ

So, in the name of inclusion, we’re excluding him? In the name of tolerance, we’re saying he can’t say that which he wants to say?

ADAM LIAW

He can say it as much as he likes.

FRAN KELLY

Then there’s a flipside of that, isn’t there?

ADAM LIAW

He can say that as much as he likes. But does Rugby Australia have to keep paying him while he’s saying that against their wishes?

ERIC ABETZ

Well, see, isn’t Rugby Australia about getting the best possible players on the field, and it’s about rugby, and it’s not about religious beliefs?

ADAM LIAW

That is absolutely not the case.

ERIC ABETZ

I would like to see a Rugby Australia team that can have Christians, atheists, Muslims, just as long as they know how to play the game.

ADAM LIAW

In modern sport...

FRAN KELLY

OK. Quickly, and then I’ll come to you, Parnell.

ADAM LIAW

In modern sport, athletes are not just about what they do on the field. Israel Folau should know this better than anyone, ‘cause he was paid millions of dollars to play AFL, a game that he is not very good at at all.

ERIC ABETZ

And what about all the blokes...

FRAN KELLY

Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.

ERIC ABETZ

...that drink too much, but they’re kept on?

FRAN KELLY

Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Parnell, you know a bit about brands.

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

I’ve got a constructive...

FRAN KELLY

Izzy Folau is a brand, and so is Rugby Australia.

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

Absolutely. And I’ve got a constructive suggestion for this. How about he gets paid for sportsballing a certain amount, and he gets paid as a brand ambassador a certain amount, and then if he doesn’t do what he’s told to as a brand ambassador, they stop paying him that amount, and he still gets paid for sportsballing? You know, quite simple. Let’s just divorce what this is about. Because, frankly, it’s also down to Rugby Australia in this not being very clear about what that brand ambassador role was.

FRAN KELLY

Is that the case, not being clear? He’d been warned once, and then re-signed after that, didn’t he?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

His warnings were very unclear in themselves, it seems. So, he was just to be respectful. Now, to somebody who believes his faith the way he does, quoting a passage from the Bible – or misquoting a passage from the Bible – what’s disrespectful about that? What’s the problem with that? So, I really think that we...I couldn’t agree more with what you’re both saying about this is not about legislation, this has to be sorted out by common sense, but there are also things that you can do from a very concrete perspective to just separate the issues that we’re dealing with here. Brands and actions and jobs can be separated out.

FRAN KELLY

OK, before we leave this topic, or this spiritual domain, our next question comes from Celina Grech.

CELINA GRECH

Thanks, Fran. What does the panel think about Scott Morrison’s recent appearance at a Hillsong conference, promoting his Christian beliefs while acting in his role as the leader of a secular multicultural, multi-faith country?

FRAN KELLY

Kimberley, guess what – that’s yours.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Thanks, Celina. I think, uh... Look, I actually... If people have a faith, I think that’s actually really good, very helpful, probably even more so in parliament. I think it probably is a source of strength that is sometimes much needed. But, look, I actually don’t have a problem if he wants to go and, you know, profess his faith and talk about his faith. I don’t really... I mean, that’s his private time. I understand what you’re saying – he’s also the prime minister of our country. But I think you’d find that in parliament there are some very strong believers, and he is one of them.

FRAN KELLY

What’s different, and this perhaps goes to the question, to Celina’s question, is in the election campaign, of course, he invited the cameras in to see him pray. That’s an unusual thing in Australian politics.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

It is unusual, and it’s more... I think we see it in other countries around the world more so than we have seen here, which brings in another question, I think, around, I think, the influencing being perhaps from, let’s...you know, from the United States, and from its political campaigning. But I... You know, if people have deep belief, I don’t really have a problem with that.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Tim?

TIM COSTELLO

Yeah. Can I say that I do think something has changed. Eric may remember this. I remember, my brother, when he went into politics, saying he was advised, “Don’t talk about your religion. It’s a secular country. They’ll think you’re a fanatic.” Something has shifted, where, now – and I think this is good – you can be up-front about your faith. And I like the fact that Scott Morrison said “I’m up-front about my faith,” encouraging everyone else to be up-front about their faith.

FRAN KELLY

When you say something has shifted, do you think it’s only shifted since this prime minister has done it?

TIM COSTELLO

No. I think it’s been shifting for some time. And I think it’s a global zeist, where religion literally is back as a force. John Kerry said, if he had his time over again as secretary of state, he would study religion to understand geopolitics. So, something has profoundly shifted. The thing I add is, the interesting thing, I think, that Scott Morrison is going to find out is that, probably for the next three years, we’re going to be having debates about what Christianity really means. I’ve got secular journalists ringing me now who are thumbing through the Bible for the first time in their lives, and they’re saying...

FRAN KELLY

Which Bible?

TIM COSTELLO

My Bible! And I’ll just say, Izzy Folau’s list, that was from Ephesians. There’s another book in the Bible which starts like his list – God says, “I’m going to judge sorcerers, perjurers, adulterers, and those who defraud their labourers from proper wages, and oppress the foreigner in our midst” – think refugees – “and the widow and orphan” – think Newstart. There’s a whole lot more in the Bible that I’m up for discussing.

FRAN KELLY

OK, Adam, are you comfortable with this?

ADAM LIAW

Why not? Millions of Australians go to church of all denominations all over. It doesn’t mean our prime minister has to go to every single church. Doesn’t mean he has to be every single Australian. He can still conduct himself as prime minister in a way that is befitting of governing and being a member of parliament for all Australians, whilst still having a faith.

FRAN KELLY

Parnell?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

I couldn’t agree more. And I think the... Look, Julia Gillard was our first openly atheist prime minister, right? And that was actually quite important. It’s important that we’re tolerant to every outlook on life that is not harming others. So it was wonderful to hear her say, “I’m an atheist – that’s just how I feel about life.” Because for a long time that was something politicians couldn’t say. You had to pretend to have some kind of a faith. And it’s wonderful on the other hand to hear somebody sincerely profess their faith, not hold it as a political instrument, but simply hold it and say, “This is me, but I’m not going to impose it on everybody else.”

FRAN KELLY

Eric, is Parnell onto something? It did seem risky. I remember when Julia Gillard declared herself an atheist, and perhaps some think it is risky for this current prime minister, Scott Morrison, to be so public with his faith. Is that...? In the secular society that we are, we’ve seen it as risky in the past to have these...’extremes’ is perhaps not quite the right word, but declarative positions.

ERIC ABETZ

Our fellow Australians are very tolerant, and they look at people on their performance. And they judged Julia Gillard not on her atheism, but on the government. They judged Scott Morrison, not on his Christianity, but on his performance. But one thing I will say to this audience is, it’s amazing how many people of the left side of politics have expressed concern about Scott Morrison’s profession of faith, yet were strangely silent when Kevin Rudd continually had press conferences outside of church in the lead-up to him becoming prime minister. His Christian faith seemed to be OK, but Scott Morrison, from the Liberal side, that seems to be a problem.

FRAN KELLY

I don’t know – I think there was a fair bit of commentary about that too.

ERIC ABETZ

Well, we need some consistency…I think we need some consistency here.

FRAN KELLY

Alright.

ERIC ABETZ

But if we are genuinely tolerant, multi-faith, multicultural society, it stands to reason that sometimes we will throw up a Christian prime minister, sometimes an atheist prime minister, and that’s the way it ought be.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Remember, if you hear any doubtful claims on Q&A, let us know on Twitter and keep an eye on the RMIT ABC Fact Check and the Conversation website for the results.

Our next question comes from Harrison Symons.

HARRISON SYMONS

Good evening. This is a question to Adam. Given the recent wage-theft scandal involving MasterChef judge and restaurateur George Calombaris, and his resignation from MasterChef, supposedly after a dispute seeking a 40% pay increase, do you feel there’s a hierarchy within the culinary profession which enables owners and chefs to mistreat and underpay staff while they feel free to demand more?

FRAN KELLY

Adam? You’re here.

ADAM LIAW

(LAUGHS) Good morning to you too, Harrison. I think Matt Preston was on radio this morning saying that that 40% increase that was mooted was not accurate, or that they had agreed to commercial terms. You can check his comments. I didn’t listen to them, ‘cause I wasn’t in Melbourne at that time.

FRAN KELLY

What about the broader question – is there a hierarchy?

ADAM LIAW

Is there a hierarchy? I mean, people should be paid the legal wage to which they’re entitled. I don’t think you’ll find anyone in this country that thinks otherwise on that point. There is a difficulty, however. You know, I’m not a restaurateur. I don’t run a restaurant. I have worked in an awful lot of restaurants. I’ve flipped burgers, I’ve washed dishes, I’ve cleaned toilets. And I can tell you that in the vast majority of those jobs I was not paid an award wage. Generally, the larger the organisation, the organisations that could afford to have payroll people to keep an eye on whether everything was being paid accordingly, were the ones that paid better, and the smaller organisations, the mum-and-dad restaurants that couldn’t keep across the complexities of the award wage system, were the ones that were paying below the award wage – $10 an hour, $5 an hour in some cases. In some of my cases, I should say.

None of this is an excuse for not paying your employees properly, but I think we have to understand also that... I mean, the question came up this week about whether or not that should be criminal, and to that I would say, “Why not?” You know, it’s a form of fraud and dishonesty, just like anything else. But let’s not get giddy about celebrity chefs being thrown in prison, ‘cause I don’t think we’re quite at the point yet.

FRAN KELLY

But we have seen some spectacular sums around this from some of the big chefs, the celebrity chefs, and their establishments, or the businesses backing them. You know, the figure we all know is George Calombaris, major establishment, $7.8 million. But it’s the others too. It’s, um... It’s some of the biggest names.

TIM COSTELLO

Neil Perry.

FRAN KELLY

Neil Perry.

ADAM LIAW

Oh, yeah. There’s definitely more to come on this. What we see in the industry is that we have gone from a situation across the food industry where an individual mum-and-dad restaurant was able to survive. I think, with rising costs, that’s becoming less and less the case, and so we’re seeing far more aggregation of restaurants. And when you’re going from a lot of different restaurants being independently operated, often that are not being well run or appropriately run, and they’re not paying award wages, going into an area of aggregation where the systems need to be better, the systems need to be more accurate, that’s where we’re finding these kind of systemic discrepancies coming to the fore.

FRAN KELLY

Before we go to the rest of the panel, let’s go to our next question, which is from Charlotte McLeod.

CHARLOTTE McLEOD

Hi. If I, as an anonymous member of the community, were to steal, misplace or misappropriate $7.8 million, I would expect a prison sentence. How is wage underpayment not theft? Does the panel believe there should be prison sentences for industrial-scale underpayment of wages?

FRAN KELLY

Kimberley?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Yes, I do. For the reason that...you know, I... It is thieving. It is thieving from people who, you know, if it was done the other way, and I think if the person at NAB who stole a whole lot of money, embezzled it, you know, she is being charged, it should happen the other way. And I notice also these systemic errors are never overpayments. It’s never the other way that they make the mistakes. It’s always underpayments. And I think every business operates with an informal social licence.

So, I think if you are... You know, there were reports that Mr Calombaris’ restaurants weren’t being very well patronised. I think that that is, you know, because people are going to vote with their feet. They don’t want to be associated with someone who has done that to his staff. And I think that if you are going to criminalise for large-scale wage underpayment, wage theft, then I think that’s a good...I think it is necessary.

I think... But we would need to see enough successful prosecutions in order for the deterrent factor to really sort of start. And in Victoria, of course, the state government here is going to actually start to criminalise, and is going to introduce legislation. I don’t think it properly belongs in the state system. I think it really is a federal responsibility, because you’ve got a hybrid civil, criminal system going on, and I think that that would be better in a federal system rather than a state system. But at least the Victorian government is doing something about it.

FRAN KELLY

Eric, I’ll come to you, but I think Adam is chomping at the bit.

ADAM LIAW

Absolutely. The deterrence in terms of increasing penalties and putting people in prison for doing large-scale systemic wage theft is certainly something that definitely should be on the table.

FRAN KELLY

So, should some of these chefs be locked up?

ADAM LIAW

I cannot comment on the...

FRAN KELLY

I knew you couldn’t.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Prison food might be better.

ADAM LIAW

As well as the deterrence factor, I think we also need to look... If the goal is truly to resolve systemic underpayment of staff in hospitality, we need to look at other issues where we can help businesses to do this as well. You know, the awards for hospitality are difficult. We can look at simplifying that, we can look at making that more accessible for people who don’t have large payroll facilities and large payroll operations. But the carrot and the stick is going to have an effect here, and it’s going to be the way we need to go, I think.

FRAN KELLY

Eric Abetz?

ERIC ABETZ

Look, wage theft, completely unacceptable. The government, in recent times, has beefed up the Fair Work Ombudsman’s budget by over $10 million to assist in this area. The Attorney-General, who is also Minister for Industrial Relations, is having a review of the IR laws, and that will be part of it. And for my tuppence worth, stealing from employees – and that’s what it is – should be treated by the criminal law exactly the same way as employees stealing from employers. And I think it’s...

FRAN KELLY

So, we do need a change of law for that. I mean, the Attorney-General said he’s looking at this recommendation from the Allan Fels report. It should happen speedily?

ERIC ABETZ

Well, look, I would be encouraging my colleagues to go down that track. There will be the difficulty, as in any criminal prosecution, as to whether it was an honest mistake or not. But when it’s, I think, so systemic, especially in bigger institutions, then one suspects that it might not have been an honest mistake of a mum-and-dad restaurant accidentally reading the wrong award or whatever. But when we’re dealing with the figures that have been mentioned, then clearly something is terribly wrong. And as a matter of principle, it should be under the criminal law. Theft is theft, whether it’s from the employer against the employee or indeed the employee against the employer.

FRAN KELLY

We’ve got a bit to get through. Parnell, a quick answer from you.

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

I agree that before we go to a criminalisation of something like this – although that’s important as well, that the penalty codes need to be looked at – but as I said before, we also need to look at how many people are competing for each job. If there are a lot of people competing for low-skilled roles, then you’ll get into a situation where some people declare themselves one way or another to be willing to do that job for less. And in hospitality, that happens quite often – informally, but it happens.

FRAN KELLY

You think it’s people putting their hands up for a pay cut?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

Well... It’s accepting it.

FRAN KELLY

It’s accepting it? It’s been the accepted way, I think, but now it’s calling it wage theft. That makes a difference, doesn’t it?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

Look, it does. And of course criminalising it would make a difference to whether people were being underpaid, but it might also make a difference to whether certain businesses would be...would exist at all. I mean, certainly in small family businesses, this is often... you know, often it’s the owner who takes the first wage cut or earns nothing as a result of this sort of thing. And if the business is still not making ends meet, then it might be some of the staff. I’m not saying that’s right. It’s very, very wrong, but that is the way of the world.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Or the 7-Eleven where...the 7-Eleven where they stood over people to reimburse some of their money. I mean, it is not acceptable to treat people like that.

ERIC ABETZ

And if you can’t make your business run without stealing wages, then you shouldn’t be in the business.

FRAN KELLY

Alright, let’s move on now. We’ve got a web question now. It’s from...

ERIC ABETZ

Thank you.

FRAN KELLY

A round of applause. This is from David Downs in Melbourne. “The Ensuring Integrity Bill gives the government power to deregister unions and ban individual union officials. Surely the actions of John Setka have provided the Coalition with the ammunition to crack down on organisations who believe that might is right?” Kimberley Kitching, that’s to you. Have the unions brought this on themselves?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

No. They absolutely have not. And we have to remember that the Ensuring Integrity Bill has no retrospectivity to it, so it is not going to deal with John Setka, unless he, you know... After, if the government is successful in passing the legislation and he does something, you know, down the track according to that legislation, then maybe yes. But there is no retrospectivity to it.

ERIC ABETZ

Are you arguing for retrospectivity?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

No, I’m not. And as you and I both know, we live in a precedent-based legal system.

ERIC ABETZ

Mm.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

There are very few pieces of legislation with retrospectivity.

ERIC ABETZ

That’s not a fig leaf to hide behind.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

But you and I both know as well, Eric, that this bill, the last time the Liberal government had, you know, effective control of both houses, they attempted...well, they passed WorkChoices, and that was their own funeral. So, let’s see what happens with the Ensuring Integrity Bill, and whether it is total overreach by this government into the rights – we’ve been talking about rights – including the right of freedom of association. It is not appropriate to have someone who says sufficient interest – whatever that might mean – be able to go into a union and decide who represents those members, which this bill does, whether I’m a disgruntled, you know, employer who might not like a union, for example, examining wage theft, could be an example of someone with sufficient interest, to then actually have someone prosecuted under this legislation.

ERIC ABETZ

In a court of law.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

This legislation is appalling.

FRAN KELLY

It is an interesting juxtaposition, the wage theft and the unions, of course, who are fighting that battle front and centre, are, at the same time, under attack by this legislation.

ERIC ABETZ

Look, only 10% of the private sector are actually in the trade union movement. So, 90% of workers are not covered by trade unions.

FRAN KELLY

No, but wage theft campaigns cover more than the unionised members.

ERIC ABETZ

And that is where the Fair Work Ombudsman has just been given an extra $10 million to pursue matters such as this. But, look, the vast bulk of union officials are good, honest, decent men and women. They have nothing to fear. But it is those like John Setka who have a lot to fear, and quite frankly, if I was in a trade union, I would be very happy with that sort of legislation, because it would ensure that the same standard that applies in corporations to directors would apply to union officials. And company directors deal with shareholders’ money, union officials deal with union members’ money.

FRAN KELLY

OK, Tim Costello...

ERIC ABETZ

There is no real moral difference.

FRAN KELLY

If the vast number of union officials are law abiding, do we need this legislation?

TIM COSTELLO

Look, I think there’s a solution here. I’d make an appeal to John Setka to resign and step down. Why? Because Jacqui Lambie, who is the key vote, has said the unions have a problem – John Setka. She said, “I’m against union-busting bills,” and sees it that way, but, whether retrospective or not, John Setka has given the government the opportunity for this union-busting bill. My plea, John Setka – whatever you think about your innocence and your strength of being a union leader, do the right thing for the sake of the union and step down.

FRAN KELLY

But if he steps down, the government’s not going to drop this bill, are you, Eric Abetz?

ERIC ABETZ

No, because...

TIM COSTELLO

But Jacqui Lambie might, then, say... Jacqui Lambie then says no.

FRAN KELLY

So, you’re not a fan of the bill, is what you’re saying?

TIM COSTELLO

No. I think union-busting... We need... Look.

ERIC ABETZ

It’s not union-busting.

TIM COSTELLO

Well, that’s Jacqui Lambie’s words. In construction, there were 12,000 injuries last year. You do need protection of unions. Those injuries are serious.

ERIC ABETZ

And what has John Setka done about that?

FRAN KELLY

OK, let’s forget John Setka for a moment. Let’s talk about the legislation. Parnell.

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

I think you need legislation to control some of the excesses of the unions where they have been bullying workers, rather than sticking up for them. Specifically, I’ve come across some smaller unions which have been springing up to actually represent the members because they’ve felt that their...that the large umbrella union that represents them has become too politicised and is imposing its will upon them, rather than doing their will and sticking up for them. So, I think it’s really important that that system gets some kind of a check and balance, and I actually think those workers who have started forming those small unions will be extremely glad and extremely grateful to have some sort of check on the big bully unions who have been oppressing them.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Adam? Do you think we need a check on the big bully unions?

ADAM LIAW

I don’t think it really comes up for discussion on this. Jacqui Lambie, I think, is going to get the Labor Party off the hook on this one by forcing the union’s hand. You know, she pushes...her position pushes getting rid of John Setka back on to the unions, which then takes the bill off the table. I don’t think the Centre Alliance senators have...

ERIC ABETZ

Until the next John Setka comes along.

FRAN KELLY

OK. You’re watching Q&A live. At the end of August, we’ll have our high school special. So, if you’re a senior high school student and you reckon you’ve got what it takes to join the Q&A panel, head to our website and upload an audition video. We’re looking for the smart, young leaders of tomorrow to take on the politicians of today.

The next question comes from Belinda Lawson. Belinda.

BELINDA LAWSON

Hi. Gambling is often treated as a bit of harmless fun, but gambling addiction can cause great misery to individuals and families, and may contribute to dangerous levels of household debt, family violence, homelessness and substance abuse. With this in mind, what do you think of the alarming and apparently unfettered proliferation of gambling advertising in recent years?

FRAN KELLY

Tim Costello, there seem to be an awful number of questions with your name on it tonight, and that’s one of them.

TIM COSTELLO

Yes, well, with today’s revelations...yesterday’s, about Crown Casino, this is just such an important question. We need a royal commission into gambling. We have 18% of all the world’s pokies. We have the greatest losses per capita in the world by 30%. The country that comes second, Singapore, 30% behind us, then it’s Ireland.

Gambling in Australia has captured and corrupted politics. And we’ve seen this now with Crown Casino’s expose that rich Chinese criminals running junkets can come in, expedited visas, we know that they’re laundering money – nearly 20% of funds going through a casino is laundered money. We know that some $15 billion of money going through casinos is laundered. That means it’s actually selling ice and cocaine, addicting our kids and often killing our kids. So, what we desperately need to do is have a royal commission. I certainly believe that the gambling advertising would be coming up in a royal commission. How did the Northern Territory...

FRAN KELLY

Can I just stop you there? What do you want the royal commission into? The Crown... I mean...

TIM COSTELLO

Crown would be three days of it.

FRAN KELLY

OK, but a royal commission into what?

TIM COSTELLO

Into the hold that gambling has and political donations from the gambling industry has on both the major parties, and why ex-politicians always go to gambling jobs. So, right at the moment, Crown hasn’t come out and made a statement to the ASX, which it should have. The chair, John Alexander, should have. We know that the political operatives, ex-politicians, in the gambling industry and at Crown are working the backrooms, right at the moment, and putting the pressure on the pollies, because there is just so much easy money here for state governments from the revenue.

When it comes to gambling advertising targeting our kids, the Northern Territory, how did it license so many foreign betting companies that actually spend $300 million a year advertising, and I say deliberately grooming our kids? Kids know the labels, the jingles, they’ve mainstreamed sport – cricket, football and rugby – with gambling ads. This is an adult product that is targeting our kids. So, we need a royal commission to ask all those questions.

FRAN KELLY

Eric Abetz, royal commission to check what Tim Costello just said? That the gambling industry has captured and corrupted our politicians?

ERIC ABETZ

It nearly seems today that if there’s a problem, just say royal commission and you can set it aside.

FRAN KELLY

Is it a good idea, though?

ERIC ABETZ

Look, I remain to be convinced that we need a royal commission into gambling, per se...

FRAN KELLY

What do we need, then?

ERIC ABETZ

...in relation to the casino matter that I think still has a lot of play in it, and we’ll find out the exact facts. But, look, gambling is a scourge. It has destroyed many lives, many families, and that is why I think the community generally needs to treat it a lot more seriously. That said, the vast bulk of us are grown-up adults, and we have a freedom to determine what we do with our money, and so I’m twixt and between. I think gambling’s a scourge, but do I want government saying you can gamble on this or you can’t gamble on that? You know, these days, pull out your mobile phone and you can lose your house just on your phone. You don’t have to go to a casino.

FRAN KELLY

That’s the point, isn’t it, though? I mean, government will bring in a seatbelt law. If you could pick up your phone and lose your house, should there be something done about that?

ERIC ABETZ

Well, how can you guard against that? Because it is now international.

TIM COSTELLO

So, Italy’s banned all sports betting. No ads. All gambling ads. In England, the FA Cup has banned the sponsorship with Ladbroke’s – you could do that – because they’ve said, “It’s corrupting sport and it’s corrupting our kids.” There’s a lot of things government can do, Eric.

FRAN KELLY

I think... Kimberley, do you want to have a say?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Well, there’s a self-excluding regime that you can, you know, be voluntary, in that you can have someone...well, you can have someone nominate...

FRAN KELLY

Sure, but that all goes to the individual. What about the notion that gambling has captured and corrupted politicians?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Look, I don’t... I actually don’t agree with that. I think that...it just doesn’t happen where... We don’t have, you know, gaming lobbyists in our offices. I mean, I wouldn’t have had one. So...

FRAN KELLY

Bipartisan agreement on that. What do you think, Belinda?

BELINDA LAWSON

I’m just disappointed in that every day on the television, our children have the opportunity to see betting ads. And they don’t just talk about the sport, they talk about the odds. And I think that’s a really, really big problem for our country.

FRAN KELLY

Parnell?

ERIC ABETZ

I think exposure to kids is a real issue.

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

I absolutely agree. Every day, they say the odds in TV. Isn’t it time that we had a royal commission into teaching of stats in schools? I’d love it if people actually understood what those odds are and what probability is. Because if we did understand that a little bit better, perhaps we would be better protected against that sort of advertising.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Adam?

ADAM LIAW

The gambling industry is a business model based on addiction. And they don’t even have to produce a cigarette or get you to drink some booze or even put on a sporting match to do that. The addiction is the money itself. And we need to take more efforts to do that. We’ve taken alcohol advertising out, cigarette advertising out. Gambling is the next step. And I don’t think the situation that we have at the moment is going to persist for very long.

FRAN KELLY

Do you think we need a royal commission?

ADAM LIAW

I mean, I think if we can get some action without having to do a royal commission, without having to go to that as a last resort, it would be much more preferable. I think we understand the problem that we are facing and we understand the size of the problem. Corruption aside, you know, gambling and addiction to gambling is an enormous problem.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Well, we’ve just got time for one last question, and it comes from Adele Roeder.

ADELE ROEDER

Hi, panel. A question specifically for Adam. After MasterChef’s trio of judges left the show due to Network Ten declining their demands of a pay rise, on top of their million-dollar salaries, it appears that the panel chose their financial status over the true purpose of the show – to encourage a passion for cooking. Who then do you believe should be the next panel of judges on MasterChef? And what values will they encompass to reinforce the true meaning of the show?

FRAN KELLY

Now, I’m not going to come to you yet. Keep that in mind. Let’s start with Kimberley on that one. Who should be the next panel of judges, and what values should they encompass to reinforce the true meaning of the show?

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Well, I think one of the beautiful things about cooking is, you know, you can share it with people. There’s love and generosity in that. So, I would like to see, you know, some of those attributes in a show on cooking. You know, I have a really very dear friend of mine who is very Anglo, so her heritage is British and Scottish. She makes world’s best tzatziki. But there is something very lovely about that the sharing of food and, you know, what it means when she gives you that. I think it’s a lovely thing. So, I think...

FRAN KELLY

OK, so that’s the values. I think people are looking for names tonight.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

Names. Names... I can’t re... The one who does the Great British Bake Off.

FRAN KELLY

Oh, OK.

KIMBERLEY KITCHING

I think she’s excellent.

FRAN KELLY

Alright. Let’s... Parnell?

PARNELL PALME McGUINNESS

Goodness, I’m trying to think of the names of some chefs and some restaurateurs who I really admire, but it’s dangerous to talk in those terms these days. Just might come out the next day and there’ll be some scandal. I don’t know. I would say I’d like to see some of the best restaurants in Sydney sending along their top chefs, perhaps in rotation as judges on this. And in terms of values, look, I absolutely agree with Kimberley. Food is about connection, it’s about love, it is about burning off your stress at 3am because you really need to cook a pheasant right now. It’s about so many things. And I think you can actually... Instead of always having this tense atmosphere in these MasterChef programs, where it’s all about re-creating the worst of a kitchen, it’d be fantastic to see the shows re-creating what is best about cooking.

FRAN KELLY

OK, get some of the tension out of MasterChef. I’m not sure what that’d do to the ratings. But, Eric?

ERIC ABETZ

Look, on this one, I need a white flag to raise very, very quickly. Cooking has never been my forte. I was spoilt for 30 years by a lovely wife that always loved cooking for me, and I confess I’ve got nothing to add. But what I will add, if you’re looking for somebody for your panel, I understand there’s a Jessica Barrow in the audience that might be worthy of consideration.

FRAN KELLY

OK. Alright, well, we’ll look for Jessica afterwards. Tim?

TIM COSTELLO

Well, I want to offer myself.

FRAN KELLY

You’ve been there before!

TIM COSTELLO

I have.

FRAN KELLY

He was actually a MasterChef judge.

TIM COSTELLO

I was MasterChef judge.

ERIC ABETZ

You were a shrinking violet.

TIM COSTELLO

I was never invited back. The Dalai Lama was on. And they kept saying, “What do you think?” And he’d giggle and say, “It’s good.” “What do you like?” He’d say, “The bread.” They’d go, “The bread?” “Do you like this more than this?” He’d say, “No, just the same.”

And suddenly it hit me, I said, “Your Holiness, as a Buddhist, you’re not allowed to judge, are you?” And he said, “No. We do not judge.” And I saw Matt, Gary, and what’s his name?

ADAM LIAW

George.

TIM COSTELLO

Matt, Gary and George, faces fall. They were asking the Dalai Lama to do something he couldn’t do. They quickly threw to me. And I said, “Look, I’m a Christian, I’m into judgement. This is what I like.” So, I think I’m qualified.

FRAN KELLY

Alright. Adam, a MasterChef without tension, a MasterChef without judging, and a set of judges that will represent love, generosity and connection. Who is it? Are we looking at him?

ADAM LIAW

I can tell you that I have not received a phone call at all on this. MasterChef Australia is the most influential cooking show in the entire world. And the reason it is so popular and it connects with so many people is that it reflects the incredible food that we have here in Australia, the way that we cook in our own homes, the diversity of influences and the wonderful produce that we have.

Unfortunately, one person who is not going to be on the judging panel, who I’d like to acknowledge, is Margaret Fulton, who very sadly passed away last week. She was a legend of Australian food. I’d like to honour her life and acknowledge that she is literally the woman that taught Australia how to cook. And my condolences go out to Suzanne, Kate and Louise and all of the Gibbs, Keats and Fulton families.

TIM COSTELLO

Mm. Hear, hear!

FRAN KELLY

I think you can’t stop there. I think you have to go to who would you see on the panel?

ADAM LIAW

Yeah...

FRAN KELLY

Margaret would never have done it anyway. She said she doesn’t like all that fancy stuff and that malarky.

ADAM LIAW

Yeah, I’m not going to give you any names, I’m sorry. I’m sure that there’s people that are in discussions on that at the moment. I can tell you absolutely that I’m not one of them.

FRAN KELLY

You’re not interested, or you’re not one of them?

ADAM LIAW

It’s the best job in television and the best job in food. I don’t think anyone in the country would not be interested in that job. But I haven’t had a phone call yet.

FRAN KELLY

OK, well, everybody, come on, I think we need to get behind Adam Liaw. We’re starting it now. And just on that, just finally, though, the notion of MasterChef without some of the yelling, without some of the tension – what do you think?

ADAM LIAW

Well, I mean, the proposition of the show is that it is a feel-good show. You know, it is about... There is tension of course into it. I prefer to cook with less tension than more. I think most people do in their own homes. But it is about celebrating food and it’s about celebrating not just the food that’s on the plate, but also the people that make it and the stories that go behind it.

FRAN KELLY

OK. That’s it from us for tonight. You have been a fantastic audience. Thank you. And can you please thank our panel: Parnell Palme McGuinness, Eric Abetz, Tim Costello, Adam Liaw, and Kimberley Kitching.

Next week on Q&A: Zali Steggall, the Independent MP who toppled the former Prime Minister Tony Abbott; Liberal rising star Jason Falinski; and Labor Senator Katy Gallagher. Tony Jones will be back on Q&A next week. I will be back at RN Breakfast on Wednesday. Goodnight.